I had good intentions of putting this up for the Monday Coffee Shop, but I hit one of those busy stretches where life got in the way.
With the 2017-18 mostly falling to pieces down the stretch, one can bet that the removal of Ron Francis from the general manager position will not be the only change between now and when the 2018-19 training camp opens.
In two parts, the Coffee Shop will be holding open auditions for the general manager position via a set of polls and related discussion on the full set of Hurricanes hockey personnel. Part 1 is the forwards with simple ‘stay or go’ polls. Check back on Thursday for a similar set of polls for the goalies, defensemen and staff.
Carolina Hurricanes ‘stay or go’ polls
Please remember to click vote after each individual poll response.
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Broader discussion
1) Which forwards would you consider to be the core that is untouchable or at least very unlikely to be shopped?
2) Are there any players that you would work to move even if the return is not great as part of a shake up of sorts?
3) What else on building out the forward lineup for 2018-19?
Go Canes!
Core> Aho, Tevo, Staal, McGinn, Lindy and Williams
Gone> Ryan,Stemp
Gone if getting good return> Skinner,Rask
Need to be active in FA top Offensive needs 1c,1w at least one major addition is needed.
How about Rask and a 3rd rd pick for EDM RNH (maybe a 2nd)
Skinner and Faulk and #1 rd pick for Ott Karlsson and Hoffman
Maybe start traded some of our high prospects!
We need new blood!
I’m terrible at judging how realistic trade suggestions are. With that being said I would be happy with both of those.
golden, Your proposed trade for Karlsson…Karlsson was over 20 minus (about the same as Faulk), scored about the same number of goals as Faulk, but had considerably more assists than Faulk. That being the case, I would just leave off including the number 1 pick. Just my opinion and as everyone knows I have been wrong many more times than right.
I think Karlsson is viewed as a much better player than Faulk.
Obviously I am not an expert but I think this is pretty close to what the would get. Hoffman is a better all around player than Skinner hence the #1 rd pick.
Karlsson is a franchise defenseman, and Hoffman is not a better all around player than Skinner but he is a better goal scorer. With that said I’m guessing you guys don’t watch Ottawa much but Hoffman is actually another one of what the Canes have many of – a perimeter player. That being said, he is a much better perimeter player than the ones we have because he is a good goal scorer – my god he has one of the best shots in the league.
I just always try to be realistic and I think the reason the commenter above said he would be fine with those trades is because these are very homer-ish offers and of course Canes fans would be happy with the results. Go try posting those offers on an Edmonton or Ottawa board and see them get absolutely eviscerated. The Ottawa trade isn’t horribly off except if you are Ottawa and you are going to trade a franchise defenseman you are going to do it for a huge haul of futures not two mid 20s players who are approaching UFA contracts.
The Edmonton offer… I mean in what world is a satisfactory 3rd line center on a nearly terrible contract + a 3rd going to net you a top 6 center/top line player? IF Edmonton is going to move RNH it is going to be for a lot more than Victor Rask. The Oilers have sold low before but RNH has greater value than Eberle, and while Strome and Rask were similar the advantage Strome possessed was being on a more reasonable contract.
RNH
20g 19a = 39 pts +/- +2
Rask 14g 17a =31 pts +/- 0
RNH is -40 for career
Rask -30
My thinking is they are simular change of scenery would do them well.
Your right about OTT trade after looking at numbers Canes would need to add more to the deal like 2 high prosects at least.
I agree with golden on our core: Aho, TT, Staal, Lindholm, Williams, and McGinn.
The rest should go; we would need a good return from Skinner but I think it’s time to move him. I think Rask can be bundled for a good return.
Also agree that we need to be active in the FA market this summer. We need to add 2 top-6 guys either through FA or trades without touching the above core to solve our forward issues.
The only untouchables to me are Aho and Staal. Aho for obvious reasons. Staal because the Canes are thin enough at center and can’t afford to lose their one good one.
I love what Teravainen has brought to the table this season, but if a really good deal came around I would reluctantly move him. He’s a perimeter forward, which the Canes have too many of, and I’m not sure if this isn’t a peak year for him. Again, I wouldn’t look to trade him, but he wouldn’t be off the table. You have to give value to get value.
Players that do not bring it in all three zones, or on a regular basis, should go. Skinner and Rask top that list. If you want to hold players accountable you can’t allow these guys to stick around. Rask will be nearly impossible to trade. Canes would probably have to eat 3/4 of his salary. Hopefully Skinner’s reputation isn’t too poor to get some value from him after his rotten season.
1. Jordan Staal, Aho, Teravainen, Pesce, Hanifin, Williams, Skinner, and Eric Staal (oops…I guess I am a little late with that one) all should be held on to unless the return is earth shattering. Fleury, Slavin, VanReimsdyke, Faulk, Lindholm, and McGinn should not be traded unless we fill the need for a top line scorer (preferably a center) or a number 1 goalie as part of a trade. Stempniak and Rask would be part of my next year’s rebuild of the 4th line. They have more value to us than what you would get for them IMO. Dahlback I would resign as he is excellent in the role he plays with the team. Nordstrom and Ryan would be fighting for their jobs against our youngsters coming up from Charlotte. In summary, I don’t want to jettison any player in a trade unless the return fills a definite need or it is as upgrade to the player(s) given up.
My overall view is if we solidify the goaltending, get an experienced top 4 defenseman, and get a top line scorer the current team members who would be held over would be a lock to make the playoff and even do well in the playoffs. Players like VanReimsdyke, McGinn, Stempniak, Rask, Ryan, etc. when placed into the proper roles within the team IMO would be excellent keeps for next year. Unfortunately, IMO Bill Peters never properly slotted these type players (or any others for that matter) based upon their on ice abilities (created roles based upon the player’s abilities), rather it appeared to me believe he put square pegs in round holes (he defined roles that he wanted filled and dumped players into the roles without regard to their abilities). In his defense he might have done this because he felt he had to deal with the players he was provided. If that is the case, then IMO he failed to communicate properly to Francis the type players he needed to fill the roles they would play as he saw them.
My last comment is that I find it difficult to discuss players by name when considering things such as who should stay and who should go. I believe all the Canes players tried to play hard, had their good games and their bad games, and certainly have value as hockey players. It is easier for me to discuss things such as this in the abstract (like discussing a need for acquiring a top line scorer versus saying player A must go or be replaced). For example, I am not a Nordstrom fan on THIS YEAR’S TEAM. If we didn’t have such a dearth of scoring, then my opinion of him AS A PLAYER fitting our needs probably would be different. In other words, he would be a dream performer on the 4th line for Pittsburgh (where his defensive bilities would be highlighted), but on the 2017-18 Canes team his negative (lack of scoring) was highlighted.
To further clarify my remarks above Bill Peters creating roles. Bill Peters defined the 4th line as being a line to be filled by shutdown defensive players as being his desired role for that line. In doing that IMO he failed to recognize that he needed some higher level of scoring from that line if he took into consideration the scorers available to fill out the top three lines in order to create a winning combination.
We have way to many 3-4th line players and not enough top 6. So players need to be moved. I love Nords hard playing,hard working,hard checking,hard skating, good pk guy but zero scoring. Our 4th line will be lucky to have 20 total pts this year.
for referance sake our 4th line cup year had everything.
K Adams 23 pts
C Adam 21pts
Larose/Ladd 11-13 pts
Could play against any line.
Great faceoffs.
Played with sandpaper and grit.
Could score a little.
In desperate need of two top 6 guys.
FA is a must win for us this year.
With a lil luck maybe Necas fills one of the roles is needed.
The untouchables to me are Aho and Staal. Turbo is very close.
I really like Lindy and McGinn for the roles they play but both are replaceable.
Our depth forwards (JoNo, PDG, Ryan, Stempniak) are replaceable.
I don’t think Williams and Skinner are here past next season – Skinner is tradeable but given that it is his contract year we would probably only be looking at prospects/picks/depth in return.
I agree Rask would be hard to move, but if you look at him as an overpaid 4th line center he looks a lot better.
Our forward lines look a lot like they did 2-3 years ago in terms of core players. I think there is a refresh button here somewhere, even if players are equal value. A term Peters likes to use when he mixes up lines is “stale”. I think that term now applies to our forward corps in general.
This list rings the most true to me. I do think the return on Skinner could be for a player with a similar contract (like Pacioretty) that may needed to be rounded out by a swap of picks/prospects.
I also think “stale” is the operative word.
I really hate mental exercises like this. Suffice to say that I consider both Rask as well as Skinner to be essential parts of our core. I think it would be a mistake to trade any one of our core.
My reasons are simple.
1) The last two seasons have been very difficult for the entire team, arguably through no fault of any of theirs. Bill Peters has really torn this group apart. There are likely other forces behind the scenes working successfully to compromise team unity as well. I can say with confidence that we haven’t yet seen half of what these guys can do as a team.
2) Any major player swap will be tainted by other GMs’ unwillingness to make a reasonable and fair deal. Both Dundon and whoever is the new GM of the Canes will be looked at as suckers waiting to be fleeced.
3) The only way we can hope to get what we need will be swapping draft choices and prospects for established players, and pursuing free agents. But how are we perceived by other players? Would any of the experienced d men or scoring forwards be willing to come into this mess? ALL of the better players know that their respective clocks are running. They only have a small time window through which they can get to the Cup. Do they want to spend their valuable time with a team that is going nowhere? That is how we are seen right now. Plus, does anyone want to rush shortening that time window through serious injury because his new team’s identity is “the Carolina Candy Canes”? I think not.
4) So, before we do anything, we need to get one or two or even three men who accept the role of lightning rod for enemy hostile attention. With these men under contract, we will be less unappealing.
Having acquired a new, gritty identity, we can try a trade for an experienced d man and a scorer or two. Maybe Bowman or Chiarelli will deal with us off the top of the deck. But I see us going after the free agents for our needs. Tom needs to open his wallet wide.
It will be interesting.
About getting fleeced, I would disagree: there are plenty of other teams in the league who feel about their underachieving players the same way we do about ours, so there are clearly going to be opportunities to shake things up using multiple trade partners. Not that it’s going to be easy or certain.
It’s difficult to vote on some of the options because I believe there are certain “groups” of players that I would keep 1 or 2 but not all. The ones I would hope the Canes keep would all depend on their contracts and prices I think.
For example – I would be interested in retaining 1, maybe 2, but definitely not all 3 out of : Nordstrom, Ryan and Stempniak. I think they should see if any are willing to come in on clear-cut 4th line salary because especially Ryan and Stempniak if affordable could present nice scoring options along with a veteran presence to help bring along some rookies (whoever wins a spot on the 4th line).
If you subscribe to The Athletic, a worthy online sports news/opinion source to pay for, they published an interview with the Stars GM yesterday in which considerable remarks were made about Dundon. I won’t try to recap it but read it if you can.
Should have said the Stars’ president.
I think it depends on who the coach is next year honestly. If Tom Dundon insists on Bill Peters for another year (That would be a shock at this point wouldn’t it?) then I think you have to at least look into the possibility of trading Skinner. He has immense trade value and potential value to other teams, but he’s not really a fit for BP’s system. That said, if we fire Peters (if only for a change from Kinetico commercials) then the core player I’m trying to trade is not on offense (cough*Faulk*cough).
JVR is going to be the subject of a bidding war this offseason, so we’ll have to see if Tom is planning to open his checkbook and get in on that action. Elsewise it’s just develop, develop, develop. Also, I think the instance is very rare, when you move a player regardless of return. You have to really be a cancer to earn that.
My personal subjective view on the lines for next year (without any additions, because I’ll add that when it happens)looks like:
Teravainen-Staal-Aho
McGinn-Lindholm-Williams
Skinner-Wallmark-Kuokkanen
Foegele-Rask-Nordstrom
Obviously thats a young team, with a lot of unproven rookies inserted into the lineup. A JVR, or a nice center in return for a certain superfluous All-Star defensemen, could turn that forward set into a strength in a real hurry. Even still, if this is the worst case forward scenario for next year, it’s nothing I would cry over. That said, it would be nice to see a solid addition or two to bring this group to the next level.
Fogger–you are the Necas believer. I see Kuokkanen getting more time in Charlotte. The future starts in Raleigh as Necas and Aho will be centers.
Teravainen-Aho-Lindholm
Foegele-Staal-Williams
Skinner-Necas-Ryan
Rask-Wallmark-McGinn
I like Foegele with Staal for two reasons: 1) It is the defensively-focused line; 2) Staal isn’t a playmaking center and Foegele is the one prospect who scores from sheer effort.
With Foegele and McGinn both capable on the PK, I think Ryan actually has more value as a winger than Nordstrom. Ryan can take important face-offs and can produce 30-35 points.
Finally, the third line can be protected and given o-zone starts. Both the second and fourth are solid defensively.
I notice neither you nor fogger have Zykov cracking the lineup. Interesting.
dmiller. It is a really tough call, which I think points out the situation is not as dire as it currently seems.
I don’t believe there will be three rookie forwards. Necas is the most talented. I think Foegele and Wallmark offer the most options. Though I can Zykov instead of either of them.
You know that I firmly believe that Carolina would be much better served with four co-equal five-on-five lines with the top players getting extra minutes on PP and PK. Given that, all of Zykov, Wallmark, and Foegele should be an improvements over Phil DiG, Stempniak, and Nordstrom.
My only issue with the Necas line is it lacks any thought of physical play and I think would end up being over matched, even in O zone starts. Only guy with any kind of speed is Necas. I can’t see either Ryan or Skinner being your corner guys to get the puck out. Maybe a swap of Ryan and McGinn fixes that.
I like the thoughts with Foegele and McGinn and the PK. Those guys would be deadly, I think. Agree with Foegele with Staal being an interesting combo, too.
1)Aho, Teravainen, Staal, Williams, Lindholm , Skinner and McGinn are the core guys I would keep. Everyone else can go as far as I am concerned.
2) I would try to move Ryan, Stempniak, DiGiuseppe, Nordstrom and Rask(if good deal was offered). I hesitate on Rask as I think he has talent and with his contract might be tough to get fair value.
3) I want Dundon to put his money where his mouth is and go get JVR or Evander Kane or both. He may have to over pay some but(allow me to dream) look at potential lines for next year;
JVR- Aho- Teravainen
Skinner- Lindholm- Kane
Zykov- Staal- Williams
Foegle- Rask- McGinn
Necas in Rask or Lindholm’s spot depending on his development.
I know it’s unlikely we get either JVR or Kane but with TVR here you never know …
I guess you’re not a Zykov believer either. But that is a much stronger lineup that what we have now. And more expensive.
I’m definitely a Zykov believer. Can’t wait to see him play with Aho and Teravainen tomorrow. Being on my hypothetical 3rd line is not meant as a knock on Zykov. I’m just imagining a team with enough talent that a guy like Zykov can be a 3rd liner. We have too many guys over slotted for their talent. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a top 6 talent on 3rd line due to depth?
I am not a Zykov believer no. I will gladly accept being wrong in this matter.
Ryan and Stemp are FA
I think its a must to bring in at least one Quality FA on offense.
(2 preferable)
Then its reasonable that one of the kids can maybe step into a top 6 role.
(Necas)
I agree here. I think the acquisition of Justin Williams proved two things – 1. The Canes were absolutely right they needed a ‘veteran’ who can execute the details and play consistently night after night and provide 40 points. But 2. It also proved that wasn’t even enough to boost the offense over the top.
So how about some more of those caliber players? As much as I enjoy the prospects the Hurricanes have right now – it is not reasonable to throw them all into the fire and expect it to work out. The reason it works well for Boston this year is because they have an established core of players to help bring along those young players. To me the Canes are still lacking that group on offense. Some of the young players might be part of the solution, but when I see names like – Paul Stastny, David Perron, Rick Nash, Tyler Bozak, Benoit Pouloit, and Michal Grabner – even without listing JVR there are guys that I think could really help provide a reliable 40 extra points to the existing group.