CapFriendly which is the go to source for all things NHL salaries/contracts officially rolled forward to 2018-19 recently, and with the 2018 Stanley Cup Finals set to begin, the offseason is near.
As such, it is a good time to set the initial baseline for the Carolina Hurricanes’ 2018-19 salary commitments and projects.
The short version
Right now, the Hurricanes show as having only $47.7 million committed for the 2018-19 season. Some will see that and jump to the conclusion that the Hurricanes will need to add salary to reach the cap floor which is projected to be about $59 million, but once one works through the math in some detail, hitting the cap floor is pretty much a done deal unless the team trades away significant salary without taking a similar amount back.
For next season, the team sees its first round of increases with Jaccob Slavin and Brett Pesce’s new contracts kicking in and Noah Hanifin also scheduled for his second contract. The next wave of increases arrives next summer when Sebastian Aho and Teuvo Teravainen are due for new contracts.
The longer version
Under contract
The $47.7 million that shows committed on CapFriendly is for only 12 players including one goalie (Darling), three defensemen (Faulk, Slavin, Pesce) and eight forwards (Staal, Skinner, Aho, Teravainen, Rask, Williams, McGinn, Martinook). Haydn Fleury who is not included only because he was dropped to the AHL roster brings the total to 13 players and $48.6 million.
Restricted free agents certain to be re-signed
Noah Hanifin: He is probably the restricted free agent with the widest potential price range depending on term and how he gets valued. My wild guess is a two-year bridge deal at $2.8 million per year (similar to what Lindholm and Teravainen recently received as highly-drafted, young RFAs).
Trevor van Riemsdyk: After a strong 2017-18 season, he definitely earns a raise over his sub-million dollar contract. I think he gets two years at $1.5-2 million per year, so let’s call it $1.8 million for year.
Elias Lindholm: He ranks second only to Hanifin for being an interesting decision this summer. The objective assessment of Lindholm thus far is that he is a solid but unspectacular depth forward who is clearly top 9 capable but not top 9 special. If he gets paid for that level of play, I figure he gets a modest raise over his recent $2.8 million salary. If the Hurricanes want to lock him up longer-term and/or if his agent can still collect for his future upside despite the fact that he is now five years deep in his NHL career, he gets more. My preference would be to take a middle ground and play a bit of hardball if necessary if his agent tries to collect again for unrealized potential. I say three years at $3.5 million is a fair price, but I admit being fearful of a higher price tag.
The math continued
Just those three players at what I would consider lower-end prices brings the Hurricanes up to $56.7 with only 16 players on the roster. Any combination of even inexpensive signings or AHL call ups would push the Hurricanes up above $60 million and safely above the salary cap.
So again the only way the salary cap floor comes into play is if the Hurricanes trade away significant salary without taking salary back or spending some of it in the free agent market.
The decisions on other free agents
In addition to the higher-profile restricted free agents listed above, the Hurricanes must make decisions on a number of other players.
Restricted free agents also include Phil Di Giuseppe and Joakim Nordstrom who would both come in at around $1 million if re-signed. In addition, unrestricted free agents Cam Ward, Derek Ryan and Lee Stempniak must be considered. If the Hurricanes re-sign Ward, that would push the team farther up above the cap floor as would Ryan.
My 2 cents and questions
Per my comments above, I think a modest earn it/provide bridge deal makes the most sense for Hanifin. I think that comes in at $2.5-3.5 million per year for two years. I see van Riemsdyk getting up to $2 million per year for 2-3 years. And my wild guess is that the Hurricanes also tread lightly in terms of committing a boat load of money to Lindholm, so I say 2-3 years for him as well with a modest raise over his current $2.8 million salary. So let’s call it 3 years at $3.3 million.
Of the other free agents, I think Ward will be re-signed at similar to his current deal but maybe slightly less, so let’s call it $2.8 million for one year. I also think Joakim Nordstrom will be re-upped for one year at about $1 million per year.
Though I am on record as thinking that Derek Ryan could be a decent depth forward, I think most likely is that he leaves to open up another roster spot for youth.
I also think it is likely that the Hurricanes will swing at least one sizable deal to change the core but that either the deal will bring back a comparable salary or otherwise that the team will reinvest the savings in the free agent market.
What say you Canes fans?
1) What term and annual salary do you think is fair for Noah Hanifin? What do you think his new contract will actually come in at?
2) What term and annual salary do you think is fair for Elias Lindholm? What do you think his new contract will actually come in at?
3) What term and annual salary do you think is fair for Trevor van Riemsdyk? What do you think his new contract will actually come in at?
4) Do you think the team will bring back Cam Ward? And if so, at what salary?
5) What other additions/subtractions do you see for the Hurricanes’ 2018-19 salaries?
Go Canes!
Hanifin – I have a feeling his negotiation doesn’t go as smooth as the other defensemen. For a bridge I can see 2yr/$5.5 million, anything less might be insulting since he can argue his points production and all-star appearance versus others. Knowing this I wouldn’t be equally shocked if he were locked up long-term or traded either. It all depends on where he fits in and other potential moves the team makes.
Lindy – I think he gets 3yr/$4mil per year. Right now he projects as a Ruutu type player and you need those guys.
TVR – For his value, I’d say 2yr/$2mil per. I like him, but don’t love him either. I get the feeling he may get dealt as part of a larger package. Again it all depends on the domino effect of Faulk and others…
Cam – I’d pass on re-signing him until or unless the Darling situation is settled. Same goes for Nordy and Ryan…we just need change and not bringing back the same players.
I was honestly thinking of Ruutu when I was reading Matt’s description of Lindholm. So the Canes need to remember NOT to make the mistake they made with Ruutu and make a unspectacular but solid player into a negative value player by giving a massive contract. I don’t mind if they go long term with Lindholm but money-wise I hope they keep the AAV down.
TVR needs to be brought back into the fold – he truly stabilized the 3rd pairing. I’m in favour of returning Hanifin and Ward but other than that I could not care less if the remainder are all let go. Diguiseppe, Nordstrom, Ryan and Stempniak are all bottom 6 players and replaceable in my opinion. I’d say at MOST the team should bring back 1 of these players to be the 12/13 forward.
While a bridge deal sounds good to the Canes, I doubt it sounds good to Hanifin’s agent. As I’ve said before, the Canes are probably going to have to gamble on Hanifin. Sign him long term and gamble he improves enough to justify the contract or trade him and gamble he doesn’t improve enough to justify a big contract. Tough decision. Physical talent like his is hard to come by, but he hasn’t shown much aptitude in the decision making department and surely isn’t much in the physical department. Toughest call they have to make this summer, IMO.
Any more than $3M a year for Lindholm is a bad deal for the Canes. I like two years/$6M. Maybe he blossoms into a top 6 type player, but right now he isn’t that kind of guy. Lindholm needs to find an offensive role to justify bigger money and a longer term deal.
I would have no problems paying TVR $2M a year. That’s still a bargain for a solid 5-6 defenseman. The Canes wouldn’t be paying for what they think he can be, which is the case with Hanifin & Lindholm, but for what he is.
Unless the Canes find a taker for Darling there is no way they should resign Cam Ward. Good man, good Cane, but the Canes need a #1 goalie and signing a guy who has proven he is not a #1 goalie would be foolish for the team.
I like Nordstrom as a fourth line/penalty killer. Does his job well in both areas. Still, the Canes may find better players and there should be no hurry to sign him. I like Derek Ryan. Good teammate, smart hockey player, but he is overmatched physically every night. They have to be able to find someone, even someone like Wallmark, that can play his role and have some upside.
Agree on all 4 points.
I think Hanifin will be the surprise deal this ummer and peg his chances at being dealt at least as high as Faulk’s. I think Jake Bean may possess a similar skillset and may be ready to replaceHannifan soon ish, though perhaps not next year.
It depend on what Hannifn aks and whether there is a big disconnect in how the Canes braintrust sees him vs. how other teams evaluate his potential.
The problem with Ward Is that he is a part of the unsuccessful past while having earnt enough reputation to require being paid as a 1B goalie. I think his $3m per year deal was at least a million too high for the role he was supposed to play in the last 2 or 3 years and I think it has set an expectation so that a realistic salary of around 1 mill per will be considered an insult to him.
I think letting him walk or assigning him as part of the coaching staff is the way to go.
I like Nordstrom for what he brought to the team and would consider keeping him on a reasonable deal.
Lindy at 3 mill for 2 or 3 years sounds reasonable, 4 mill per does not, we already have an overpaid Rask, we don’t need to add to that.
With Hanifin, as with Lindholm and others, there are contract negotiations happening in parallel with trade discussions. Listening to offers on players will give Mgmt – I’m not comfortable using the GMDW shorthand yet – a way to mark the player to market and see any available arbitrage between what a player is worth to us versus what that player is worth to someone else based on the package back we’d get back in a trade. A big part of this offseason that is different from prior offseasons is our greater willingness to act on this spread when it is favorable to us since fewer players are viewed as “core.”
My general view is that Hanifin has very high value around the league to certain teams – for example, I think we should ask for Pastrnak back from Boston if they inquire (not that we’d get it) – and so does Lindholm, Rask, Faulk, and Skinner. But I’m just speculating.
In the grand scheme of things, the dollars used for depth roster spots don’t move the needle enough to matter much – the real question in those cases is whether we need the attributes of those players or would rather have other playing attributes (ie., Martinook vs Kruger); the dollars are going to be roughly the same. That seems like a RBA decision: do those players fit the mold into the team he’d like to skate?
I think the contract specifics are going to be heavily correlated to the trade discussions. No way for me to know what the right prices are.
1. I would lean towards giving Hanifin 2-3 years at around $3m. But with his upside and the all-star appearance I could see several scenarios that I think are just as likely: a larger bridge deal, us taking a risk and locking him up long term for somewhere between Pesce and Slavin money, or trading him if other clubs rate his potential highly.
2. I would also put Lindy on a ‘show me’ 2-3 year bridge around $3m but think it’s unlikely that he doesn’t get closer to Rask money. His numbers are close to what Rask was pre-deal and he’s just as versatile, if not more so, with a higher ceiling.
3. TVR definitely deserves $2m in my eyes; outside of Pesce he was our most consistent defender and showed that he could step up into a top 4 role when needed.
4. Cam is a tough one. He’s definitely not the #1 goalie that we need but I’ve seen both RBA and Williams talk about his leadership in the locker room which I think could play a larger factor than it probably should. If we do resign him we definitely still need another potential starter option as well; we absolutely cannot go into next season with Ward and Darling again.
5. I think Ryan and Stempniak will be walking; I would let DiGi go too. Nordstrom could make sense as a potential #13/14 guy with PK and physical upside. Otherwise let’s not continue to block our up-and-comers in Charlotte. Still could see some big changes with trades; none of Faulk, Skinner, or Hanifin going would surprise me.
A little off topic, but was thinking about the reluctance to trade high-end or core players. The Boston Bruins have traded three very high end players over the past decade or so. Joe Thorton, Phil Kessel, and Tyler Seguin have all been dealt and the Bruins remain a annual threat to win the cup. All three players have found a home and are thriving, but so are the Bruins. My point is that it can be done, and sometimes it needs to be done.
That’s a tough analogy. I see what you are saying… but Boston has lost on all 3 of those trades.
Typically, when trading away a top player you loose out, the sum of parts coming back doesn’t equal what you gave up. The league is built on top end talent and most teams have the first line doing all of the heavy lifting.
That’s why its so important to hit on your first rd picks and even more so for us this year at no. 2.. There is no way we trade that No. 2 pick either.. Matt said the chances are 1/100.. I think its closer to 1/1,000… Even further its only Andrei Svechnikov that will be considered at unless Buff passes on Dahlin. The hockey gods finally gave us some love….
Not sure how Boston lost on those trades. They win. Nearly every year. If players don’t fit the program they have to go. I didn’t understand the Thorton deal, but the other two were pretty obvious. I’m much more interested in wins and losses than individual statistics.
So the argument is that trading Seguin made them better? Google Tyler Seguin Trade Winners, Its pretty unanimous.
Honestly, The reason the Bruins have been successful has to do with their Goaltending, D and top line production, not secondary scoring which is what they received in all of the trades… Boston’s downfall is its secondary scoring, so yeah, they lost on all of those trades. The Kessel trade could be an argument as it got them Tyler Seguin… but then that goes to what did they do with him?
Their D has been one of the better in the league over their successful seasons and have had 10 years of top goaltending.
The old conversation of who won and lost a trade is a fun one. Usual rule,who gets the best player wins the trade 🙂
If you can get first round picks for a guy then that has more value than a depth player… since you can get depth a lot of ways, the top is what you need to win. Elite players make the difference in winning consistently.
If my memory serves me correctly Seguin had alienated himself from the locker room with his partying and lack of effort. Had to go. Maybe he has grown up and is more of a pro at this point, but if what I heard was correct Boston had to move him. Seguin is scoring up a storm in Dallas and they continue to be a non factor in the playoffs. Meh….Addition by subtraction. I see your point, but what would have happened if Boston had kept Seguin? Would they have won more? Or would there have been problems in the room? I would bet on the latter.
d-rob, the point is that trading away those players did not set BOS back as a team. Maybe they didn’t get as much back as they gave up but there was some dynamic with those players that had stopped working or got in the way. Trading away a player that goes on to become very productive someplace else has nothing to do with how your team performs post-trade: that’s the real point.
Huh, weird. Seguin was an actual human and not a hockey robot. Sounds like he was a pretty typical young kid. I wouldn’t doubt he could have alienated himself from the locker room, but that sounds like a very human situation in a hockey environment.
dmilleravid and lessthanstable
Really still on the success of the Bruins?
Since the Seguin Trade… Missed the playoffs 2 of the 3 seasons. Only made it past the first round once in the last 5. Don’t think that is a great run of success… Maybe compared to our run in the same timeline then that would make you happy… I hardly consider Boston as a model of success with their trades and success in the last 5 seasons.
I couldn’t speculate where they would be if they didn’t trade Seguin… that didn’t happen so who knows… Seguin is a better player than they got back, that’s a fact.
Further.. Peter Chiarelli was also fired a few years after that trade because it was terrible… So I’m not sure what you are even saying at this point.
I’m all for a trade, that’s not the point.. Trade Skinner, Faulk, Rask… Just don’t see a great return from them..
1. Hanifin- I want a 2 year bridge deal. We need to convince his agent that he needs to proof himself if he wants big money. If not, offer him a close to pesce money because of his addition scoring but lesser defense. He wont take it and may see a bridge deal is the best way to go.
2. Lindy- I’d bet he gets 4 million. Which is too much. Unfortunately GMRF screwed the pooch giving Rask that money. Lindy will want the same.
3. TVR- Go 4 years 2 AAV; yr 1&2 1.8, yr 3&4 2.2mil. McKeown is our only RHD defensive depth. We dont have any other decent replacements over the next 3 years. Keep TVR longer than 2.
4. IF and a big IF we dont find a better goalie than someone like Sparks from Toronto & Cam doesnt get an offer, give Cam a PTO. Other than that, let Cam walk. He has been a great Cane and would be a great backup if we had a young goalie ready to start. We dont, he isnt a starter, and Darling is weighing us down.
5. Think about Svech’s cap hit. We most definitely will take his performance bonus hit this season. I expect his cap hit to be around 3.5 million.
6. If we can move Rask to offense / center hungry teams like Montreal or Arizona then awesome. We’ll see his cap hit absorbed by the additions of Necas, Zykov and Foegele (maybe Wallmark too).
forgot to mention. Lindy’s bridge deal just ended. He has no bridge deals remaining. He is a UFA after this deal is over.
Thanks for the information Matt. These decisions on contracts are where front offices shine or make regrettable decisions. Hopefully, the team finds appropriate deals for the players that are part of the core going forward.
One player that interests me going forward is TVR. He played well and was mostly responsible this past season. Yet I think he is not the player the canes need next year. The team has several solid skaters on D who are technically sound.
What the canes need is a third pairing D man who is a sheriff. My grand dad used to talk about people who were “meaner than a junkyard dog.” The canes d is stacked with Labrador retrievers. Athletic, friendly, and fun to be around. This is not a slant. The D is young and can be good for a while. They are just missing that guy that might “bite” if you get too close.
TVR is solid player who would fit well on a D that has another junkyard dog. As I have stated earlier, the goalies will not have much confidence until their d protects them. I think Fleury can get meaner as he matures. Yet an outside D man who will put opposing players on notice is needed. A guy who wakes up mad and will not tolerate shenanigans even from Stormy.
The cap will work itself out but if the culture does not change the cap floor or ceiling will be the least of our worries.
Loved the dog analogy. You are so right about the Canes having alot of labradors and not enough mean dogs. I think TVR is replaceable with a physical 3rd pairing dman but at the same time I have FAITH that Pesce and Fleury given more time can develop into those junkyard dog mean defenders that you are referring to but with higher upside.
I also think Faulk has that ability when he puts his mind to it to be physical and hard to play against but his lack of consistency in that area is a pain.
The canes don’t just have too many labrador retrievers on the blueline but just the whole team in general. Scott Darling needing to call out the team on not surrounding/defending the goalies after whistles is more evidence of this lack of snarl and toughness.
Let me preface this by saying I prefer signing 4-year of longer deals. I understand the benefits of a 2- or 3-year bridge, but think it is still outweighed by the benefits of a longer deal. Those being a player’s upside and the ability to trade a player on a reasonable contract. The only downside to a longer deal is a player declining, which I think Canes’ fans overemphasize due to Rask. But even then I am not sure it is nearly the problem some think. On the HFBoards site there is a thread dedicated to trade rumors/proposals. Several fans from other teams have asked about Rask–not one has indicated salary needs to be retained. The reason is that $4million is not really that much in the NHL in 2018. More when I get to Lindholm.
1) Agree with some of the others in that I don’t really know on Hanifin. I would love 5 years at $3.6 million, but don’t think his agent accepts anything less than Pesce’s salary for that length. So a bridge is more likely.
2) I think 6 years for total $25 million is fair.
What!? You say.
Couturier is making $4,333,333–he signed the contract after 39 and 37 point seasons. Wennberg is making $4.9 million. Admittedly signed after a 59 point season, but one in which he scored only 13 goals. Perreault (not as young) signed a 4-year deal as a UFA in 2016 for $4.125 million per year. He had never scored more than 43 points.
My point is that $4 million is the going rate for serviceable center. Most of the regulars on this thread have stated pretty strongly that they think (and I totally agree) that Linholm can thrive at C. In fact, I will continue to argue that if he centers Svechnikov he becomes a 60-point player. Then the length and term will be a steal.
3) Again I like at least 4 years, even 5. I would like 5 years for $9 million.
4) IMO Cam wants to stay in Raleigh. So I think he would agree to 2 years for $4 million. The organization should take it.
5) Zykov and Wallmark are RFAs. Both have earned low-level NHL salaries–something in the $1.2-$1.4 million range. An extra $250,000 doesn’t matter the next few years and players should be rewarded for being among the best in the AHL.
You could be right on Hanifin and Lindholm. If you aren’t you have locked up $7.5M on two, as they stand now, average or below average NHL players for 5 or 6 years. Huge gamble. Could cost you your job as GM if you are wrong.
Why keep Cam Ward at any salary? Because he is a good guy and good Cane? Canes need a #1 goalie. Cam Ward is not a #1 goalie. Unless they can move Darling it is suicide to sign Cam Ward.
Can’t imagine why you would pay Zykov and Wallmark any more than you have to. Unproven NHL players closing in on the age where they aren’t seen as prospects any more. No way I reward AHL play with NHL money.
Solid Post CT… I think you are pretty close in your assessments.
I was going to go through and make my own post on each but without looking at comparable players in each and spending the time on research I will hold on specifics.
I think the most important thing to remember is that its always more expensive than we anticipate.
Hanifin – to me he gets a bridge deal all day. His agent, Bobby Orr will want the big long term deal and that only happens if the Canes see that he will reach his potential. I see caution from the Canes on this one. Side story… I have a very (VERY) stretched connection to Noah via the classic adult league hockey parking lot. No details out of respect but its pretty cool to see Noah’s name pop up on a text message on my buddy’s phone while having a beer after our games. FYI, Noah is a class act and extremely kind to the hockey community.
I think everyone will hate the Lindholm contract at first… But by the end of it everyone will be happy with it. He has made steady improvements and still has room to grow. I think he can break out and can be a consistent 20 goal scorer and 60-70 points a season guy. I completely agree that Centering Svechnikov will accelerate that.
Cam – I bet he resigns… but its a 1 year deal. I just don’t think they will commit anything over that.
I can’t reasonable contract guesses – I don’t keep up with comparables.
I think a short bridge for Hanifin (2 years?) if his rights aren’t traded, and another 3-year bridge for Lindy – can RBA get more out of him as he has said he wants to do so.
I would love to see Cam return on a year-to-year basis. He is part of the community here – not that it matters to ownership/management these days. But he is a mostly reliable veteran backup, and I think the team can use that. Recent words from Cam’s agent suggest that they are being given a heads-up it is unlikely we will re-sign him.
“Recent words from Cam’s agent suggest that they are being given a heads-up it is unlikely we will re-sign him.”
I can totally see that happening.
The irony if Ward departed this summer would be huge. After multiple years where he was not good enough (in my opinion) in his role but had to stay because of his huge contract, he could depart after a season when he was good enough in his role (as a backup) but because the other goalie was not good enough. That would definitely be an odd ending.
Rolewise maybe. Statistically it was another typical year from Ward, outside of playing 20 fewer games his numbers were consistent with the years previous, and did in fact show slight decline. It makes sense, because at this point, you kind of know what you’re going to get from him. Moreso than Darling or any free agent anyway. And what we’re going to get from him is probably not what is necessary to get us over the hump.
Emotionally I hate it, but rationally and statistically it makes too much more sense to roll the dice than stick with the very known entity that is Cam Ward. Bring in another guy to platoon with Darling. Maybe that way too you can trick the team into being more comfortable with Darling than they are with the new guy, and build Darling’s confidence that way.
Very true. Sad that it may play out that way. Sports is tough business and the players know that. At least they should. Ward will always be a popular figure and a big piece of Carolina Hurricanes folklore.
What is truly sad is that people under-appreciate Ward. This past season his win/lost was excellent, but people are saying his save % was poor. Well, save % is much like +/-, a garbage stat. A thorough analysis was done at hockeyviz in 2017 for the 16-17 season. And guess what, Ward was better than the average NHL goalie in that year when everyone thought he was bad.
So the true irony, is the team will likely start winning with a goalie no better and maybe a little inferior to Ward.
http://hockeyviz.com/txt/sGA
For those of you who want to say “but I know what I saw,” realize that Bobrovsky and Holtby stand out, which implies the deeper analysis is on to something.
I hear you ct, but you and I read that graph differently. It’s nice to see Ward get his due, but it also says he was overperforming, so he’ll likely be due for some regression (Holy heck, look at Khudobin). I will say though I would not like to see where Darling is on this chart on this year’s version. Goalies are a bit harder to evaluate is true, and I’ve been a Ward advocate for years, but he’s been nothing more than average outside of a 1-2 hot streaks each year. I wouldn’t complain if he was re-signed at all, but I also see the logic if he is not.
If you watched Clear Sight Analytics all season you would have seen that Ward was ranked as one of the 5 worst goaltenders in the league based upon their method of measuring save percentage by quality of shot. He appears to have been edged out in the final standings by Carey Price. (how the mighty have fallen)
Goes to show you that advanced statistics are still pretty subjective. Which website do you believe? The final point with Ward, to me, is that he is who he has been his entire career. A goalie capable of playing inspired hockey for short periods of time, but unable to maintain it through a full season. Shot percentage may be a garbage stat in the short term, but over a career?
Do you really want to see the Canes go into the season with the same two goalies they had last year?
Fogger. We are reading it differently. I am pretty sure the overperforming means that those goalies (including Ward, Lack, and Khudobin) were overperforming the defense in front of them. As in most charts being above the axis doesn’t imply regression to the mean, it implies quality, which won’t necessarily disappear.
After three goalies other than Ward who have “been nothing more than average” and often much less, don’t you wonder if BP (and sacrilege I know, Steve Smith) had a system that somehow made goalies worse?
I’m not sure that a system can make goalies worse, but a poor performing team in front of them sure can. It works the other way, too. It was certainly a combination of bad goaltending and poor team defense that sunk the Canes, IMO. Far too many breakdowns last season. It has to improve for the Canes to win.
Oh I definitely think Bill Peters complete inability to communicate well with his players affected his goaltenders especially, and could well have played a factor in addition to the shaky defense. But we’ll see if that theory holds water this season.
My Estimates:
1. Hanifin – I think most estimates above are too low. 3 year bridge at $4M.
2. Lindholm – 5 years at $3.8M.
3. TVR – 3 years at $1.9M. I agree with JM97 above that TVR may not be a
fit and could be traded, but that could change if Faulk is dealt.
4. If Darling goes then Cam will return at $3M. (I know RBA’s opinion).
5. I think PDG gets signed but not Nordstrom, Stempniak or Ryan.